Didn't you note the little '"' characters around the word 'immoral'?
They are there for a reason, viz. that *I* don't call the games
'immoral', I call them 'amoral', but that some people may very well
call them 'immora' and try to ban them. My point was precisely that
I'm not one of them.
>Anyhow, what do you suggest? What's the alternative.... waiting outside
>the home for the object to get thrown in the trash....
>asking permission.... trading and
>bartering? I don't think it's an issue of amorality or immorality--it's
>a method of most convenience.
Using the "method of most convenience" in situations like this -
"why buy something, when you can just take it?" - is *exactly*
what I had mind when talking about "amoral behaviour".
>Secondly, to feel rules outside a game belong inside the game,
>otherwise the game is amoral, is ridiculous.
Yes, of course. I'm not saying the *game* is amoral. I'm saying the
character's _behaviour_ in the game would be amoral if it were moved
to the real world.
I'm perfectly aware that if the rules of a gmae say that it's OK to steal,
pillage and kill, then it's not immoral for the players of the game to
do so. Still, I'm interested in _why_ the rules are that way.
> It's not that simple. Man is
>not by nature amoral or immoral. That's society's label.
Says you. I nkow of quite a few people who would dispute that point.
But this is not a discussion of real-world ethics.
Let me tell you what I'm _really_ interested in:
I'm writing a piece of IF, right? In this game, the character needs a
thing that isn't hers. The only way to get it is to steal it. I don't
have any moral problems with this, personally - after all, it's only a
game.
*However* I'm going to be cute and put in a little snide comment to
the effect that the player is doing something wshe would never do in
real life. This comment will be along the lines of "Of course, taking
what isn't yours is usually frowned upon. But if you could get away
withkilling the poor wizard of Frobozz and stealing all his stuff, I
guess you can get away with this as well". I just wanted to see if
there were any other good examples apart from the stealing and killing
in Zork.
>Finally, keep in mind that morals are created and destroyed by
>society, to protect that society, and the society itself may be a rotten
>apple.
Even if we accept that thesis - so what? The behaviour of characters
in many adventure games will still be at odds with those morals. I
was merely after some examples of such behaviour, not attacking the
morality of the games themselves, which you seem to believe despite
the fact that I specifically disclaimed it.
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se) / yacc computer club, Lund, Sweden
Work: Innovativ Vision AB, Linkoping (magnus.olsson@ivab.se)
Old adresses (may still work): magnus@thep.lu.se, thepmo@selund.bitnet
PGP key available via finger (to df.lth.se) or on request.